Surely this means war!!!!

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Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Annoying Twit on Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:01 pm

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/other-les-pauls/108475-mij-guitars-investments.html#post2109946


Just because something was MIJ does not make it good. Hondo, Westone, and a hundred other makes are flat out garbage for the most part. Sure, maybe you'll find a few playable ones, but by and large, they aren't even close to Squier and Epi stuff of today.

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Steve777 on Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:11 pm

I hope you told him to try a Prestige 250! What an ignorant git! Post this back on "mylespaul" website. I've had Gibbo's during the 80's and all had problems. The Vee I had was no better than some of the Far East knock offs. VFM ... very poor.

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by norfolkngood on Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:53 pm

I've got two views on this.

As a comment on Uncle Mat guitars in general, the quote from the LesPaul site is of course total bovine defecation. Yamaha led the charge in the 80s with the original SG series. Quality control at Gibbo and Fender was a joke then and MIJ guitars became popular by offering a much better product at affordable prices. The big names owe a debt to Westone for raising the bar.

On the other hand I'm more than happy to see MIJ guitars slated as a poor investment. It keeps the collectors away and means there's more for us Wink

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by caucajun on Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:58 pm

idiots......they don't know nuthin'..........that's a knee jerk reaction to a subject that they inherited an opinion about! Evil or Very Mad

them l'il b0ys need skuulin'! study


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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by corsair on Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:01 am

norfolkngood wrote:On the other hand I'm more than happy to see MIJ guitars slated as a poor investment. It keeps the collectors away and means there's more for us Wink

+1

I could care less what Gibson fanboys think of Westone...

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Racing on Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:23 am

AT.
Some of the diehard "made in US" twats are just ignorant,so let them....

We´ve partialy had this discussion over at the Mat board and the thing is with the break of the 80s MIJ guitars that some of them are getting out of range from "our" perspective already.

The "metal" style mid 80s axes haven´t gotten there quite yet though.Super strat designs and what have you not.
No matter what some know it all over at Lespaulforums think, the REALITY is that some of the jap standalone designs have already jumped the bandwagon-albeit not to F and G levels.

But take any old Daion Power MkXX...we´re already talking that they´re fetching 2500-3500 dollars on ebay in the states on a regular basis.
We currently see the highend offerings of Aria asf bursting the 1000 Euro barrier more often than not.
When it comes to "custom shop" offerings of the time like PE1000U,Gerry Cotts,Neal Schouns asf we´re WELL into the 5000 dollar territory for some-disregarding what any US soil "experts" proclaim and THAT market in turn will most likely only grow stronger as those guitars were scarse to begin with.
No crystal ball needed.At all.

These guitars seem to be in the mix of what will be "the next thing",and i guess to a point i can relate.
The stereotype looking F and G originals as well as copies hoover around two designs really,and you sooner or later get "full" from an estetics POW i guess and that is where for instance a MkXX steps in.
Further,the highend jap offerings will take on ANY F or G any day of the week and what gets me is the very elitist BS by the purist from that respect.
There´s even more logic to it if you contemplate the FACT that there are only that many true vintage Fs and Gs around and there are CERTAINLY more people into old guitars than there are offerings.Ergo,the prices for true vintage american iron will not ever go through the floor.
Hence,there is a void out there to be filled by those into vintage for one and into quality for second and what fits that adress well ATM is....
Vintage jap guitars,and as we all know these guitars indeed have a following already.

No.
Jap guitars will never bring 500 000 dollars,nor should they.
However, the idea that anything designed outside of the US can´t be rock n roll...what complete and utter BS.

Where that puts the mainstay of us onboard here as well as the Mat board is a different matter as we´ve so far been accustomed to picking up decent and high quality guitars for basicaly coffee change.
Those days are about gone for the break 80s guitars though,and a fair guess is that it´ll reach the mid 80s Westones too as time pass.
To us though,on here and the Mat board, it is mainly about the appreciation of good instruments and what they will deliver from a player perspective.

In contrast to the guys over at Lespaul i for one say be wary.Forget about the copies though.
SOME of our guitars will most likely jump that bandwagon as it sets off(it has already as can be attested by those into the slightly older Mat offerings)and at that time as we regard our guitars mainly from a player perspective it might very well be time for fresh hunting grounds as our beloved Mats simply in OUR terms won´t be value for money anymore.

For instance.
Is a Daion Power MkXX worth 3000 dollars as of current IMO?
Nope.Not from a guitar POW if you compare it to others.
Then again...is a 60s F strat worth 10 000 dollars?
*ROTFLMFAOPIMP*.....geez...are you kiddin me!?!?! Rolling Eyes
HELL NO!

..which goes to show u i guess..

That a certain MODEL guitar will be more valuable cause artist X played it...yeah well...sorry to say true to an extent,and all you need to do is look at the current crop of signature editions.
On the other hand THAT has gotten to a point where the manufacturers have made them by the bundle in effect making the purchasing public grow tired of them.
Hence why the market has turned otherwise to a degree..

The pathetic thing about it though is that the "purist" behave like they wont let the jap guitars "in".
Just ignorant and pathetic.

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Annoying Twit on Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:44 am

I wasn't too serious about the "war".

I've seen all sorts of reviews of guitars on all sorts of sorts by all sorts of people, and am aware to the extent that you have to take them with a pinch of salt. On the same mylespaul forum the opinions on the Vintage V100 seems to wash back and forward likes waves on a beach. At one point everyone will be raving on them. Later on someone will say they're so awful that not even a beginner should have one. All I know is, I like mine Smile

Over some time I had been wondering if my Cimar bass was a good purchase, even though I like it a lot, as people go on about the Squier Vintage Modified basses etc. I.e. I wondered if for about the same money (a local shop to me beats even internet prices! - how do they survive?), I would have been better off with a Vintage Modified Jazz bass, or the new VM Jaguar bass. Last week I went and tried them out, and I'm now even happier. Not only would I not swap my Cimar for either of the Squiers (not that they're bad, just that I prefer the Cimar a bit), I wouldn't swap it for the Mexican Fender Jazz I tried at the same time. Not bad for a 30 year (or so) old "economy" instrument!

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Barry on Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:59 pm

No it doesn't. And don't call me "Shirley"! clown

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by anaerobe on Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:39 pm

Racing mentioned:

"The pathetic thing about it though is that the "purist" behave like they wont let the jap guitars "in".
Just ignorant and pathetic."

Absolutely right, brother. Many F and G (effin G?) axes are great, play well, etc. However I would never rule out trying something else. Ergo my modest collection exists... and some of my music buddies tend to sniff at, while looking down their noses. Even so, 90% of it is in the form of the occasional harmless shot, but some of what I hear borders on overt ignorance. So, I gave up trying to reckon the motives of those types long ago and just keep playing. Very Happy Very Happy

My no-name Mats stuff sounds every bit as good as F and G. That is established and recognized.


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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Annoying Twit on Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:26 am

To be fair the "Other Les Pauls" sub-forum is a hotbed of Japanese made guitar fetishism. If it was just people who insisted on Gibsons or nothing, I wouldn't bother with the forum.

And as for the comment about Westones, my recent purchasing activity (being sent today I'm told) shows how much notice I took of that. Very Happy

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by anaerobe on Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:51 am

Fetishism. Ha! :albino: Love that.

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Lunatech78 on Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:24 pm

Living in the US Midwest, I can tell you that the "effin G" mentality is still very much alive here. Pawn shops don't want anything that doesn't have an F or G on the headstock. I have to admit, I suffered from the same ignorance, but after buying a Spectrum and getting info and help from the fine folks on this forum, my focus as a player and collector has greatly shifted Smile

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by bobroberts on Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:34 am

My first proper electric guitar was (still got it) my Thunder 1a. I also own a Gibson Explorer (among others), and until recently owned a MIM Fender Tele, and a MIM 50's Classic Player Strat (among many others).
The Tele was rock solid, and will go on forever, as will the Westie. The Tele needed replacement pickups, as the stocks were shizz! Great neck!
The pickups on the Explorer divide opinion - some hate them. I think they're fine, but I can see there's room for improvement. Nice player, though!
The Westie's sound is 'different'. I think it has a sound of it's own - that's not a bad thing, btw. I just accept that that's how it sounds, and don't expect it to sound like something else. Possibly the best player I've ever picked up!
The Strat had an awesome (soft V profile) neck, and sounded fantastic. But I hated the placement of the volume knob, and off it went.

In conclusion, there's not a lot to pick between them. Some 'maybe' score higher in some ways, and lower in others. A lot of people's 'opinions' are based on snobbery and ignorance. My Westie punches above it's price, and a lot of people pay over the odds for a name guitar, "cos it must be better, cos it costs a lot more."

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Raider on Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:30 pm

I think I'm "turning Japanese"!

Bought my first MIJ, Westone Raider bass, Love it.
Obviously been abused before abandoning in a loft, still sounds like new after a little renovation.

In no way do I think MIJ's are inferior to Fender and Gibson.

Still if the F+G fans dont want them, all the more for us.

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by corsair on Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:56 pm

Raider wrote:I think I'm "turning Japanese"!

Bought my first MIJ, Westone Raider bass, Love it.
Obviously been abused before abandoning in a loft, still sounds like new after a little renovation.

In no way do I think MIJ's are inferior to Fender and Gibson.

Still if the F+G fans dont want them, all the more for us.

And so say all of us!! That's how a lot of us got into these fine instruments... I traded in a 57 telecaster for my first Matsumoku in 1980... only found Westones about 5 years ago, even though my second last band had a bassist who used a Spectrum ST bass, which I recorded with in preference to my P bass... good instruments!

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Warrn on Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:06 pm

When I found my Spectrum GT bass for $50, it was my third bass and the first one I paid for. Within a year, I had 13. No Fender. No Gibson. More than half of my collection is Matsumoku-made. I think I'm set.

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Philby on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:11 pm

Three words came to mind when I read the original post. Pot. Kettle. Black. Sharp frets, sloppy binding, poorly cut nuts, rubbish paint jobs. These are all 'features' I've observed on Gibsons over the years, often all on the same instrument. Their current stuff is no better. I'm surprised they're still in business. Fender have learned from their past mistakes, but the current Epi's are more consistent than Gibson USA products.

Give me a Westie any day!

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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by umpdv5000 on Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:47 pm

In my experience, I find that truly accomplished players always keep an open mind on what is a good and bad guitar. The have usually all transcended through and above the "This make is best and everything else is crap!" syndrome. I could pick flaws in every make of guitar, but some would be more preference niggles on my part and not necessarily crap on the makers part.

For instance... I don't like the placing of the heel on a Les Paul, as this restricts comfortable access to the high frets. I also don't like having two volume and tone controls as they have on Les Paul's (and other Gibson models) as I use a guitars volume control constantly to whip between solo and chord volume. But I wouldn't brand them as crap just because they don't suit my ideals.

I have a number of guitars but only two Westie's... Thunder 1A guitar and a Spectrum Bass. When I got these Westie's they were in need of much attention. I repair guitars for a living and when I bought them I could see the raw potential of what I was buying, but as you will be aware, many guitars suffer from the hazards of ownership and miss-treatment. Had your average, " I know the score about guitars" type of person seen these, they could easily have discarded them as rubbish and consequently decided that all Westie's are rubbish.

This having been pointed out, it must be said that Westone's have many great qualities, but do have some design points that are questionable and will not be to everyone's taste.


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Re: Surely this means war!!!!

Post by Raider on Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:08 pm

umpdv5000 wrote: when I bought them I could see the raw potential of what I was buying, but as you will be aware, many guitars suffer from the hazards of ownership and miss-treatment. Had your average, " I know the score about guitars" type of person seen these, they could easily have discarded them as rubbish and consequently decided that all Westie's are rubbish.


When I bought my raider 2 bass it had been abused and abandoned in a loft. I Got it pretty cheap, and made it sound like new with minimal work, I already had B.o.g.o.f strings from when I restrung another bass:D Though it still doesn't look like new!

At least the "projects" keep the F+G fanboys away and keep the prices low!

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re: this means war

Post by IanO on Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:26 pm

All who berate westones etc are missing the trick.
EVERY guitar I try is compared to my thunder 1, best player I own-not many even equal it, £100 or £1000

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